Is this legal?

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Comment by Adam Graham on January 3, 2017 at 12:01pm

So I think I understand the confusion.  She is using this technique for every shot, not just tandem shots that are close to the line.  Even when going for a disc that is across the board, she whisks the disc instead of striking it.  That is the issue that the group is worried about.  Is she allowed to shove the disc during a normal shot or does it have to be struck.  Thank you and looking forward to your input, Adam

Comment by Howard Martin on January 2, 2017 at 4:48pm

First, the shooting disc must be placed as close as possible to the disc in play, without moving it, and still be on the shooting line before attempting this tandem shot.  Try to do this shot in one fluid motion.   


Comment by Adam Graham on January 2, 2017 at 7:33am

Thank you for the help so far.  I hope that I am explaining the situation well enough.  

What is happening during her shot is that her index finger lines up.  It moves slowly forward until it contacts the disc.  It then remains on the disc as she accelerates the disc over an extended contact with it and her finger.  When she needs extra power, her wrist, arm and shoulder will get involved and add power to the finger as it remains on the disc.  This is where the table shake comes from.  Her finger holds on the disc and then the arm, shoulder, wrist shove it toward the target.  I feel like I need a good slo mo video of this.  I could do that if it would help.

Getting good power with a finger motion alone is impossible if you don't hold your finger against your thumb and build up tension from there.

Howard Martin- In response to A in your earlier account.  I read that as it is okay to contact your shooting disc and then after it makes contact with a disc in play, it is okay to continue guiding it toward a secondary goal.  This has the effect of shooting the disc twice.  Once to make the initial contact with a disc in play and then a second shot to achieve a good result from the shooting disc.

In response to B.  There is no upward motion of the hand and the board does shake.  The whole table shakes.  She essentially punches the disc toward its target.  This action can remain on the disc for an extended distance during this shot.  He finger can be on it for up to an inch of travel as all this winds up.  

I really appreciate your help with all this.  We have a trophy defense coming up and would love to have clarity on all this before the 14th of January.  

Thanks and Happy Flicking, Adam

Comment by Howard Martin on December 31, 2016 at 12:21pm

In essence we are talking about a slower or extended release rather than a snap shot ! not following along- see B: below.

Comment by Adam Graham on December 31, 2016 at 10:37am
Thank you. If I am hearing this right, it is okay to continue shoving a disc even after it has made contact with a disc already in play. As I have understood a strike, it should occur momentarily and transfer the finger energy to the disc on the shooting line as a strike rather than a shove. It is okay for the finger to remain on the struck disc over a period of time in essence guiding it towards the target? Her finger stays on the disc for about an inch of travel at times. That seems different than what I see in the YouTube videos of great players at Tavistock. Sorry for being such a pickle. I don't want anyone in our club, myself included, questioning the legitimacy of her wins. Thanks for the help.
Comment by Howard Martin on December 31, 2016 at 8:46am

Hi Adam, 

In followup to Nathans answer to your question. As a long time member of the St.Jacobs Crokinole Club I feel obliged to offer my insight pertaining to valid shot in question. 

A: The slight forward force is required for a smooth delivery to set the shooting disc in motion (inertia) enabling it to carry both the disc close to the shooting line, along with the shooting disc into the middle of the board. Different players over the years seem to have perfected this shot to raise both discs for a higher count. 

 B: The upward motion (of the hand/arm) simultaneously upon release of the finger helps to accomplish this feat without the danger of shaking the board or table. 

Hope this is helpful !    Good luck and Happy New Year

Comment by Adam Graham on December 30, 2016 at 9:12am

Hey Nathan, 

Thank you for the encouraging words about our club and your help so far with this technique issue.  The club is sort of unofficial at this point, but we are designing a club shirt and have an official monthly meet night on the calendar.  Any advice would be warmly welcomed.  I am the unofficial leader at this point but have several enthusiastic members helping out.  

The area of concern is with the amount of time that the finger remains in contact with the disc and forward motion of the arm and wrist.  The reason she cannot freeze a disc in place when close to her quadrant is that she is continuing to push that disc even after contact has been made with the second disc. This has the effect of sending both discs into motion across the board rather the transferring the energy of the initial disc into the second contacted disc.  

This effect bought into question the legitimacy of the way she is shooting.  Motion is not limited to her finger alone and extends past her wrist and into her elbow and at times her shoulder.  She is also not striking the disc but is shoving and guiding it.  Her finger remains on the disc as it is accelerated towards its target.  It is apparent in shots where she needs more power as the board and often the whole table can shake.  It's like when the T-rex is approaching in Jurassic Park.  Any drinks on the table end up with ripples on the surface.  

I believe that your answer clears this up for us, but I wanted to make sure before any decision was made.  Thank you and Happy Flicking.

Comment by Nathan Walsh on December 29, 2016 at 9:29pm

Hi Adam,

First off, great news about the club getting started and looking strong. I certainly wish you the best and look forward to hearing more about it.

I don't believe we have anything specific in the rules for either of your questions, but I'll offer what seems to be generally accepted.

Question 1 - There are instances of when a disc is quite close to the shooting line, and a player attempts to promote that disc, along with their shooting disc into the middle of the board. This can really only happen with the situation you describe, and hasn't caused any controversy so far as I know. If you wanted to draw comparisons to other sports, I believe pool requires only contact with the cue ball and nothing additional. While in tennis, a player can essentially double-hit a ball, so long as the stroke was one motion.

I believe it's generally accepted that so long as it is the single strike of a finger, the shot is allowed.

Question 2 - Part of what you describe is fine, and part of it is not allowed or frowned upon.

Some players tend to shoot with "exuberance" and inadvertently have their shooting hand push forward in the air during a shot, and this is fine because the power of the shot still came from the flick of the finger, rather than any power from the hand/arm, and really had no impact on the shot. The part that isn't allowed, or is at least unfavourable, is when this motion shakes the board or table. The rules state that your non shooting hand can't be in contact with the table during a shot, and similarly your shooting hand shouldn't be causing anything to impact the shot.

Then again, I don't believe we have any concrete rules to cover this exact situation. I'd love to hear some additional insight from others to get a feeling for what the preferred line of thinking is.

Comment by Adam Graham on December 24, 2016 at 6:51am
Merry Christmas Flickers,
This technique became an issue again the other day and I am in need of some clarification. Members of our club have also bought this up and are in search of answers.

Situation- I made a shot on a disc very close to my shooting line with little space between my disc and the opposing disc. My wife commented on how easily I froze my disc in place and how that was difficult for her in that situation. I explained that her questionably illegal shot technique is causing the problem because she isn't making momentary contact with the disc she is flicking and is in effect shoving the disc and adding energy to it after contact has been made. This is obvious because her disc won't freeze in place and flies off the board with the one she was shooting at. There is also forward motion of her hand that shakes the whole table sometimes originating past her elbow and into her shoulder.
Question #1- Should contact with the disc be momentary as is a strike or can the finger be used to "whisk" the disc on its path?
Question #2- Is forward motion of the hand allowable during a strike or must all energy originate from the finger?

Thank you for any help. Good news. We had an official club meeting this month, have nearly 30 people on our list and have a a regular meet up scheduled for second Saturday of each month.

Happy Holidays and Good Flicking
Comment by Adam Graham on August 14, 2016 at 8:54pm
I will look into this thumb thing! Definitely thumbthing to consider. The takeaway from this is that the hand should remain stationary during the shot, correct? She is a really good player and we just want to be sure she is legit.

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